Developing realistic, natural conversation ability, Techniques and tips for practicing conversational ability Options

[ArcticFox]

This is a long one, but I wrote this for myself earlier, and I really notice that it helps. Please give it a try and let me know what you think.

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I believe that many of us here have as our goal more than just good grades on the JLPT -- we actually want the ability to speak Japanese relatively "fluently" [and by fluent, we mean that we want to be able to speak about a majority of daily topics as well as somewhat be able to speak about advanced educational / political / theoretical topics with relative ease, rarely stopping to think for more than a few seconds, and rarely groping for words or asking for assistance, i.e., "how do you say..."].

And, if you're like me, you'll find that although you can read and understand most of that kind of stuff, and although you can make your way just fine even through educational lectures / seminars / etc., when it comes to face-to-face communication with your average Japanese native speaker, words seem to slip away and ability seems to get shaky. Reading [especially with a dictionary] is like cruising in a luxury vehicle on a straight expressway, but talking over a cup of tea in anything more than simple sentences can seem like clunking along in an old junker.

Here are some practice suggestions that I haven't used often enough to increase realistic, actual ability in speaking the language on the spot. I would love for you to post anything that you feel is helpful for this purpose. Note that we all know about using flash cards, studying grammar, practicing our reading, watching the news, etc., but how can we convert our efforts into actual, natural speaking ability? I wrote the following mainly for myself to put together my thoughts so I could refer to them when I am in a rut, but I wanted to post it to help others in the same boat. And note that there are two sides to conversation -- listening (and understanding), and speaking (and being comprehensible).

Here's what I've got, and please add your advice:

1) Dictation with repetition. What this means is that you take a segment of some audio or audio/visual content, and you listen to it / watch it over and over again with no additional textual assistance (no script, no subtitles, etc). You then write out everything that is being said, word for word as best you can. If you are unsure of something, if possible, find a native speaker to help you, otherwise skip it after 10 or so tries (and fails). Then, this is the critical part, speak audibly (out loud) what you've just transcribed. Whether it's a movie script you just made from watching your favorite movie, or the radio NHK news broadcast, speak it out loud. Movies scripts may take longer because of scenes with little speaking.

First, just get a feeling for how it sounds to speak it, and get a general idea of what it is like. Then, try it again, this time speaking along with or shadowing the speaker as best you can [If you don't know, shadowing means saying what the speaker is saying immediately after they say it, so you're always staying a little behind but sticking with it]. Then, do it without stopping the video / audio at all, trying to keep up as best as possible. This is a HUGELY important point: focus on comprehending what you're saying first. Then, and only then, focus more on pronunciation and more natural intonation.

Now, note patterns. For example, if you notice that 「しばらく」 is often followed with 「すると」, try to memorize that particularly phrase, 「しばらくすると」. Language is not mainly a combination of individual words, but a combination of phrases. Another more grammatical example might be 「だから」and 「＊から」 (＊ symbolizes the absence of だ). When do you say 「だから」and when do you say only 「から」? Note the patterns. For example, if you always hear 「いいから」and never 「いいだから」, ask yourself why, and then look it up in a grammar book or on a website. Learn the rules firsthand this way, and then reinforce them with grammar explanations (try to find explanations in all Japanese for best results).

One more example of a different type. I often read 「〜ようだ」 or 「〜ようです」in textbooks and other written material, but I noticed something: I hardly ever hear anyone say it. In fact, I listened for a week, and after spending over 30-40 hours interacting with native speakers, I never heard it once except in a sermon (and that only once). I concluded that it must not be used in spoken language much, and is mainly used for written language or for formal speeches/events. I looked it up in a Japanese grammar book, and there it said:


「ようだ」は書き言葉や改まった話し言葉で使われる

It sticks so much better in my mind when I discover it in realistic communication versus merely reading about it in a grammar book. At the same time, without the grammar book, I wouldn't have that reassuring professional opinion to refer to.

2) Find good language material and mimic it over and over. Only repeating a dialog once will not solidify it in the mind. And, it's been nearly proven that we now realize that muscle seems to have a "memory" (not inside the muscle, but how the brain categorizes information and uses seems to indicate that muscle develops memory from habitual repetition). People who clench their teeth tend to do so without realizing it, and people who train in martial arts or even a sport like baseball seem to just "know" instantly how to move to achieve the desired result. Likewise, you must train your mouth and tongue to move exactly how they should for different phrases. If we don't do this, we constantly stumble over our words and we become nearly incomprehensible to our listeners.

By "good language material," I have two definitions. The first is obvious: find material that has realistic, natural language that native speakers use in the appropriate situation. That means, don't keep training on self-made dialogs unless you're absolutely sure they are completely natural, otherwise you'll internalize errors or awkward (though grammatically correct) language. Don't train yourself to speak in all です・ます form if you want to speak with your similarly aged friends naturally.

The second meaning is less obvious but will become so when I say it: mimic only the material that makes you who you want to be. If you download a radio podcast designed for young listeners, and you are female and are copying a female speaker, you're pretty good to go. If you're male and copying a female, you should either know the pitfalls extremely well or find a male speaker. Furthermore, do you want to sound like a cutesy female? If so, then you can find cutesy speakers. If not, avoid girls who speak cutesy. Me personally, I have just started the hunt for male speakers who sound pretty intelligent when they speak, use occasionally big words, but yet don't sound too terribly dry. I found one guy I definitely like on the radio, and recorded some of his conversations and will be mimicking them after I transcribe it. I don't want to completely lose who I am to learn to speak Japanese.

Also, take care with dialects. Copy them if you want, but remember that someone who can only speak a non-standard dialect of a language will face unique limitations in terms of employment and social standing (the same is true of native speakers themselves).

3) Take extreme care with textbook dialogs. They are designed just for people like you, studying Japanese as a foreign language. They often contain simplified, unnecessarily polite or formal language. For example, quickly glancing through my intermediate Japanese textbook that is still lying around, I found a variety of stereotypical, less than completely natural conversations in the dialogs. I work in an office, and the average worker who decides to chat will do so in their own natural language as a friend does with a friend, dispensing with most です・ます endings and using the common slang and dialect; that of course instantly changes if the boss comes around.

As the conversations get better (more natural language), they still have a huge, fatal flaw: every single one pretty much centers around college, studying abroad, talking to professors, etc. The only ones that branch out cover stereotypical restaurant / doctor conversations. There are no trips to the game center, no one is chatting in a car on the way to a restaurant, there are no conversations about funny things people did the day before, etc. These kinds of conversations comprise the majority of what is spoken around me outside of work with my friends. I'm being prepped for conversations I already learned how to have and don't want to have anymore. I just don't want to recycle the same old static, boring, stereotypical conversations about sushi, Kanji, how hot it is in the summer, and narrow roads and small apartments.

I haven't found a decent textbook that is more down to earth about the dialogs; they mostly center around stereotypical experiences that foreigners are supposed to have in Japan, even though I've never received a gift from my neighbors who have moved in and out, and I really don't want to talk anymore about my home country compared to Japan. If you know of one, please, by all means, PM me or post it here.

4) Reading out loud. This has been helpful for me, and it taught me many helpful phrases. Find books with lots of dialog, and read the dialog out loud many times.

5) Acting out dialogs that I have in my head is often times helpful. If I know I'm going to have a conversation about something with someone, I have it in my head beforehand. What helps me even more is if I say it out loud. I can't anticipate all the responses, so I just mostly talk from my perspective saying all the things I want to say, and whatever I am asked, I am usually prepared to give at least a basic answer. For example, when I talked to my friends about how I felt when Japanese people constantly feel the need to excessively use phrases like 「サンキュウ」(thank you), 「グッド」(good), and 「ハロウ」(hello), I rehearsed it first out loud by myself. I looked up how to say phrases similar to "it makes me feel" and "their intention is." I could communicate how I felt, sympathize with why they do it, and communicate what I wanted. I did not unnecessarily offend anyone, and clearly got my point across: I know why you do it, but it's unnecessarily because it sometimes makes me feel like an outcast because it singles me out as different.

6) Listening to other people talk, and paying close attention to phrases that I think would be useful for me. I try to internalize them, and as soon as possible write them down and then I can study them.

7) Swapping words in natural conversations. Find a natural conversation on radio, TV, the internet, or from memory of one in person (better have a good memory). Once you know it inside and out, start swapping words. If the person says, 「社会的なルールがあっても、破れるってええんちゃう？」. Try swapping in 「社会的なルールがあったら、破れるってだめじゃない？」. Notice the necessary change in the verb that I had to make to follow up with my statement (two opposing opinions).

An easier way to do is simply to change the verb if possible or to change a noun. 「外食のほうが気楽」can have a lot of stuff in place of 「外食」. You can also change the 「気楽」 to something like 「高い」 or 「好き」or 「楽しい」.

8) Pay special attention to natural conversation styles that non-native speakers rarely use or avoid. For example, conversation softeners like 「と思う」・かなぁ・かもしれない・けど・とか・など・〜だもの. These types of phrases can sometimes carry little or no meaning; you don't really want to say "probably" or "I wonder," but sometimes it's necessary to soften the phrases you use. Also, eliciting responses from people in a natural way is difficult for non-native speakers, but watch for how people end their sentences (intonation) as well as words they use, such as 「いいんじゃない？」・「な！」(rising intonation)「〜ないの？」・「ねぇぇ」(falling intonation as the voice fades). Also, simple grammatical forms like 「〜てしまう」 are easy to forget but make for a lot more natural conversation. For example, this sentence is a bit dry without the proper ending:

「使わないと、言葉の能力はすぐなくなる」

This is much better:

「 使わないと、言葉の能力はすぐなくなってしまうよね」or 「使わないと、言葉の能力はすぐなくなっちゃうねぇ」

9) This is perhaps the most difficult to do, not because it's hard, but because it's embarrassing and revealing: record yourself having a real or imagined dialog, and then listen to it / watch it afterwards. See how long you pause, try to notice any errors you make if you can, and listen to your intonation. Do you tend to favor using なぁ at the end of every single sentence? Is that the speaking style you want for yourself? Do you take a long time to think of vocabulary? Should you focus more on studying vocab, and if so, what area of vocabulary especially trips you up?

I've been forced to see myself on video several times using Japanese for college courses, and they were very eye-opening moments; I realized just how much I look for others to reassure me of my language ability. This makes some Japanese feel awkward or shy, because I keep indicating by my eyes and posture (as well as by excessive sentence ending particles) that I'm not sure about what I said and need reassurance. Many people can't give me that reassurance, so as I lose more confidence, they lose more confidence and become more shy/awkward, makes me feel like I'm really saying something totally screwy and I get more awkward, and the cycle moves forward.

10) This is important: learn how to buy yourself time naturally. This is essential for conversations, especially in a foreign language. For example, if you are not groping for words but are generally searching your brain for some fact or memory (such as a time, or a name, or a place), be natural and say something like this:

「何だっけ」「どこだったっけ」「何と言ったっけ」
「なんか」　「あのう」　「ええと」

Say it clearly to yourself, looking away from the listener for a moment to emphasize this inner search. If you look straight at the person, you might imply that they should know this fact, and if it has nothing to do with them, they may think, "How should I know?"

11) Don't try to make stuff up for yourself. If you don't know how to say something, figure it how to say it naturally in Japanese (if you must say it). Too many times my non-Japanese friends ask me how to say, "I miss so-and-so" in Japanese. It's not really something you can say in Japanese, but must be communicated in a different way. Your best bet is to read like crazy. Books, especially conversation-heavy novels, are your best linguistic friends. They are forever patient, never judgmental, will repeat themselves as many times as you need them to, never speak too fast or too slow for you, and will always be there to remind you of exactly what was said earlier in the exact same way. If you want an even more amazing and linguistically wonderful experience, find a Japanese audiobook, buy it, and then buy the book itself. Now you have the thing in audio form and in written form. Although the conversation won't be natural (someone is reading it from a book), it'll make amazingly great listening practice. Plus, you can hear how someone would say it with a relatively natural intonation and pronunciation. I recommend logging into the Japanese store on iTunes for audiobooks (can't find them anywhere else yet).

12) This applies to almost everything else: write it down if it's important to you. Keep a small notepad nearby. I don't recommend something too small, but small enough to be easy to keep with you. Write down everything you want to remember for future use. Just today I heard someone say the Japanese equivalent of "it just slipped my mind," as in, he just forgot what he wanted to say right that moment. I wrote it down, and the simple act of writing it down has solidified in my mind; later, I review it, and then it's mine for a long time. In fact, if I put it into a flash card program on my computer, it'll become something I'll remember for as long as I review it/use it.

Please feel free to add your practical and useful advice!

[ArcticFox]

A quick follow-up.

Here are some of the tools I recommend:

1) Google -- Use it to search for Japanese text. For example, if you're curious what particle you should use (は？が？), try putting both combos into the search. If one returns a disproportionately huge number of hits and the other has a small number, the first is probably correct in most situations. If they are roughly equal or there is no huge disparity, it probably depends on the context. You can then try putting it something close to exactly what you want to say and see how that goes.

You can also use this for single vocabulary or phrases you find in books. For example, I just read 「バラバラの組になったけど」. I was wondering to what degree people say 「ばらばらの組」, so I typed it into Google and got to see lots of real life examples of it in use. It's also great that so many Japanese people post blogs about mundane, daily topics, because it means that you find lots of text that otherwise wouldn't be so prevalent on the net. Just be careful to avoid L2 sites (Japanese as a second or foreign language); they will have unnatural Japanese written by non-native speakers. Fortunately, there aren't many (unlike ESL sites, which are littered like crazy throughout the net).

2) アルク. I'm sure you can find the site if you search for it, since I like to avoid typing URLs into posts. Here it is if you can't find it: alc dot co dot jp. You can figure that out I'm sure. Anyway, the site is great for tons of natural and slang use of language. You can find stuff like, "What the heck!" translated into Japanese. Unfortunately, the heavy reliance on translation is not recommended if you can find the answer through an all-Japanese setup (such as a 国語 dictionary or such).

3) Yahoo or Goo 国語 dictionaries. Why not learn new words in Japanese using Japanese? Many have example sentences, to boot.

4) A good paper dictionary. Find one without English translations and that has at least short example sentences. This is a 国語辞書, not a 和英・英和辞書.

5) A radio with a tape cassette (and/or at least a headphone jack/line out). Recording radio (if you're in Japan) is a great way to get free audio material, including news broadcasts as well as radio talk. Get ahold of some DJs chatting with people and you'll find it surprisingly useful. Record it tape, then use the headphone jack to an line-in on a computer to record to PC so that you can listen as much as you want without destroying a delicate tape (or having to do the awkward manual rewind). If you have the money, find a way to record Japanese TV (VHS? via a video camera with analog input jack?).

6) Podcast software. Tons of free podcasts are available for the taking. If you really can't find them, PM me and I'll give you some great sites. Yomiuri news has two podcasts that I know of: regular audio news, and then a video news podcast. I recommend iTunes.

7) A good all-Japanese grammar book. You can get something like the 完全マスター series geared towards JLPT study, or find one that is purely a grammar dictionary. But make sure it's all Japanese (unless you have no chance of understanding it that way). Grammar isn't good for conversation (you can't think that fast), but it either give you a good foundation to learn, how reassure you of what you are discovering from authentic material).

8) An excellent source for systematic vocabulary study. WRP Kanji cards are good, and so is JLPT geared stuff...

9) Speaking of WRP Kanji cards, GET THEM! In my opinion they are a must for most learners. Get them, study them like crazy, and open up the world of the written Japanese word. Without being able to read, language progress can be horribly slow. Novels will open up worlds of opportunity for language learning.

10) Novels! Get stuff you love first, especially at first. If you can't stand any sort of fiction, at least grab some non-fiction. If you don't like in Japan, go to Amazon's Japanese store and find something you like.

11) Electronic dictionary. Get one with an included 国語辞書 (Japanese-Japanese dictionary). Use it like crazy, because using that will make sure that each time you look up a word, you are slowly learning other words too. Make sure it allows for looking up Kanji, either by character recognition or by radical-stroke count.

12) A software flash card program (SRS). SRS = spaced repetition system. It means that you won't continue to study what you already know. Studying the same cards without categorizing them is a waste of your time. If you know a word, why study it everytime alongside words you don't know? The more you know a word, the less you need to study it. Find a program that keeps track of your hits/misses, and uses that to calculate how often you see each word. Input new words, Kanji, phrases, or grammar points into it and study them like crazy.

13) Manga is a double-edged sword: short sentences, often simple storylines explained via pretty pictures. Be careful! Manga is a world in itself, full of lots of strange vocabulary that the average Japanese person would virtually never use in real life. Don't call your friends 手前, please!

14) Another warning: translated works. Be careful. They are often super easy to read because they are probably translated from English, your native language (... if it is your native language). Don't use them much. You may be learning to say slightly awkward things, or learning a form of Japanese devoid of the most natural phrases and customs.

15) JLPT audio practice CDs/booklets. Get a good set of them and use them. Although the conversations are not necessarily entirely natural, they are useful for "pin-point precision" study. That is, many will have a particular phrase or grammar point that is addressed, or will be pin-pointing a specific listening skill (listening for cardinal directions, numbers, preferences, reasons, etc).

16) TIME. You need it. Lots of it. If you don't have it, don't expect to get good. Don't even expect to get decent. You can waste time studying inefficiently, but you just can't study so efficiently that you no longer need time. If you don't have the time, make it. That means you must sacrifice if you REALLY want to learn Japanese. If you don't have much time and are desperate to learn a second language, try Spanish, French, or Italian; they are much easier to learn, and take approximately 20-25% of the time that Japanese will take to achieve the same ability level (according to research done by the Department of Defense in the US). But honestly, if you need to, quit your job and find something part time to make time. Cut back on food and outings and study like crazy. You absolutely need lots of time. Making time by studying flash cards while waiting in line is great, but you can't do a dictation exercise or give serious time to studying conversation while standing in line in public.

Anyway, get the resources as best you can with your budget, and get to work. Don't get bogged down trying to study the old traditional way (sitting at a desk) if it doesn't work for you. Feel free to move around as you listen to something, or sit in front of the TV with paper and pencil. Listen to a podcast on your computer while typing it up (dictation). Vary your study program so that it isn't boring. Read everywhere and anywhere. Read for content/pleasure (just read it, understand it, enjoy it), and read for structure/vocabulary/phrases (pick it apart, notice particles, notice grammar structure, notice specific phrases or static language). Study from audio CDs and from textbooks (but textbooks are often unnatural, so be careful). Get a book on a local dialect to make it interesting (関西弁, Kansai-ben anyone?). Just read through random sections of a Japanese-Japanese dictionary for fun (never know what you might find). Look at random tables or charts of Japanese (such as different particles and example sentences, or politeness level difference charts). Notice signs, stuff on menus, stuff on receipts, labels on food. Eavesdrop on conversations, notice how the young lady next to you orders her food, or how the older man asks for an ice cream cone.

Perhaps most important: keep at it, and don't let discouragement stop you from one day of studying. Never let anyone tell you you can't learn it, not even yourself. Don't let people label you an English monkey, because you have every right to be able to learn and use Japanese as anyone else. If you have handicaps (not living in Japan, started when you were 35), ignore them, because you probably can't change it. If you can change it (move to Japan), do it! But don't worry about things you can't change.

Best of luck and work at it like crazy!

[amandap]

Thank you for all your advice!! Some of those I'm already doing but there are definitely a few I should start, particularly reading out loud and repeating dialogues.
I'm staying in Japan at the moment (half way through a two month stay) and although my listening has significantly improved I have trouble contributing to conversations and putting sentences together on the spot. I feel this is very much due to studying using textbooks as you mentioned. If someone asks me about my hobbies, the weather, directions, travel, study etc that's easy but I'm lost for words in everyday mundane conversation.

I have been really surprised at how much my listening has improved through hearing Japanese speech everyday. I knew it would get better but thought it would take much longer. Now I want to get better at speaking and have been wondering if there's a simple way of doing so as my listening improved bit by bit fairly effortlessly. It sounds like repetition is the way! And now I think about it, that's what I've seen little kids do too. They copy what people say on tv and they repeat what other people say to them.

Oh, actually I'd like to promote a book while I'm here, I just bought it on amazon. It's called やさしい日常英会話辞典 and is by 野村真美. It's full of really simple everyday stuff like "I don't want to get up" "anything interesting on (tv)?" "don't leave the water running" etc. It also comes with 3 CDs that have people reading ALL of the dialogue in English and Japanese. It's meant for Japanese speakers so there's no furigana, the Japanese speech is quite fast and the Japanese is read before the English. However they're quite minor problems and the book is perfect for learning how to speak like a normal human being.

[maxhodges]

this book is also nice for developing natural speaking abilities:

http://www.whiterabbitpress.com/product.ph...at=0&page=1

[Zack Kaplan]

ArcticFox,

I just really want to thank you for choosing to put this up. I'm going to be spending a year in japan in a little under one year from now, and am trying to prepare myself as best as is possible. My goal for the next year is to finish the rest of JLPT level 3, and get get more than just a little ways into level 2 ( a long road, i'm aware.) Your idea about recording yourself speaking, and then reviewing it is really a wonderful idea. I have a video or two of myself my my conversational classes, but while i thought of them as embarrassing and awfully piercing, the thought of using the videos for study had never occurred to me. I'm sure it will be rather difficult, but i believe i'll probably see some immediate results from just addressing my problems.

Once again, thanks! I feel energized to continue striving forward. Things had been feeling a little hopeless lately, after all.

-Zack

[WestonPortman]

Amazing post, thank you very much. I'd like to say a few things and add somethings that have helped me as well.

I wish I would have read some of this stuff years ago but I doubt it would have made any sense to me. The most striking part is that you seem to have caught on to the fact that the emotional intonations such as よね、ね、and such are difficult because they are emotionally revealing. This used to be very difficult for me. I am someone who can be very shy and reserved yet I have an extremely large vocabulary. I can say anything however it would often come out strange or hesitant.

Recently I was talking about this point with a friend and we both agreed that the end of sentences is the hardest part. To use （な）の、or not in questions, or how to simply state things. It is particularity embarrassing because unlike English you have to commit to an emotion depending on the particles you use and then you assume all responsibility for how you are judged for it! This makes Japanese a hellish language for introverts and perfectionists at first.

If I could add something to recommend it would for everyone to decide what kind of character they want to be in Japanese, how do you want to sound and what are your options. I think we all know that Japanese stories, movies games and such, have archetypal characters which tend to reappear. There is the boyish guy, the cool guy, the shy guy, and so on. Each of these characters uses different Japanese, and It has been important and beneficial to me to recognize which one suits me most, and then memorizing this character for myself. Watch how this character talks, and watch how the characters you dislike talk as well. The reason that this is important is because of Japaneses nature, almost everyone takes on a persona when speaking or stating anything. This is why Japanese comedy is funny, because you can say anything, and people will laugh because you chose it out of the many different options you had at the moment. All if not most emotions are related in Japanese through the actual words you say rather than timing and intonation, so as an English speaker you may often feel as if it is a superficial layer of some sort. I think it just takes experimentation and careful review of all options when speaking.

Anyway this is a great post, i can see myself agreeing with you on almost everything. Good luck everyone and if you can think of anything lets post here.